i don't buy for a minute if you read tyler hamilton and dan quayle's book "the secret race," maybe at that level, where -- the level meaning tyler was a mountain climber and in 1999 and 2000 it was three guys who were on this sophisticated doping program, but even frankie and i who saw the usada report and read that book, it was new to us. it was completely new to us. 2000 was the turning point. 2001 on if you wanted to be on lance armstrong's winning tour team, then i would say, yeah, you had to do what it takes. >> he was the co-owner. >> he was the co-owner of the team, he made the decision who was fired -- who was fired and how much they got paid. for him to say he wasn't, when i say he was cherry picking, last night he was truthful with some things, and with other things he just wasn't truthful. >> but, betsy, basically lance armstrong was setting conditions such that the only way you could compete successfully was to dope. >> the only way to win. the only way to win was to dope. you could compete, but lance didn't want you did -- you wouldn't win. >> right. >> if you doped, then